Ahmad Al Rikaby:

Dr. Lygeros when I read about your achievements I feel like an hour of introduction may not do you justice and I hope that there will be another opportunity to speak about your life experiences and achievements but in this conversation will focus on the city of Mosul. My question starts from where you are right now in Greece your country was the gate to a safer life for hundreds of thousands refugees most of them victims of Daesh and many of them actually come from Mosul. What does the battle to liberate Mosul means to you and the people of Greece?

Dr. Nikos Lygeros:

First of all for the people of Greece it’s a target, which is very important because we think all of us that the problem should be solved at the sources and not here in Greece. So we think that we have to manage the situation and to give the battle with Daesh because they produce the problem and the problem has to be solved in this place and not in Europe. So for me, as a strategist I think it is more important to see that we have to help people, help innocent people not to become victims because if we stay, if we delay for decisions, for your mission, action in fact we will get a bigger problem. So now we can see that the Greek coalition with the Americans even with the Russians helps a lot of people there because they think that for example Peshmerga do quite well the job in this place and also some of Iraqi soldiers, I mean the best of them, who can solve the problem efficiently and with robustness because it is important to stay also after the battle.

Ahmad Al Rikaby:

Dr. Lygeros Daesh I mean is not just a militant group but it’s the child of an extreme ideology. Based on your knowledge of history how easy or how difficult it is to eliminate an extreme ideology?

Dr. Nikos Lygeros:

I think it’s quite difficult in any case but we know that Daesh comes from wahhabists. They are not salafis so they are more extreme. They don’t need any interpretation even for the Quran, so the position of the Sunnis is quite difficult because even for the schools, said already, they are heretic. But the problem is when you have people who have much money and help countries for example, I don’t know if you want to mention countries, Qatar, Saudi Arabia give them the opportunity to stay not only alive but to stay in a dangerous state. So the problem for us is the following: When we have extremists we cannot have extremist action. So the problem is that we are now in war with people who believe that nobody else should be there. So the problem is not the position or the compromise with two points of view. It is that one of them wants to be alone. So we have to defeat them and we have to resist because we have too many innocent people who died just because of the delay of the counterattack.

Ahmad Al Rikaby:

Can you suggest a practical step to face this extreme ideology?

Dr. Nikos Lygeros:

I mean the practical is the core. Many times in strategy we use other targets but in this case is not something, which is comparable to Al Qaida. It’s much more dangerous there is no efficient target for many years so the impact is very important. So we have to consider that if we don’t solve the problem at the core of it, there is no solution. So the practical point of view even in theology, I mean even for the study of the Quran, is that a position, which says that there is no interpretation, is very dangerous because you don’t have any critical ideas about that.  So the problem is the Quran is certainly respectable book but if you want to deny the possibility of interpretation it’s a very big mistake. So I think that the schools, the four traditional schools of Sunnah should insist that there is a problem even in the core of the interpretation of the Quran.

Ahmad Al Rikaby:

Another thing we have noticed that during the period of Daesh in Mosul is their clear intentions to destroy the historical heritage of Mosul or Nineveh as it’s called historically which one did before including the first Muslims who entered Nineveh over a thousand years ago. Why do you think Daesh is targeting the history of the city?

Dr. Nikos Lygeros:

I fact they are killers of Time that don’t want the past. The problem is not the history the problem is history is a position to prove that there was a past. So for them is Markov’s chain which means in mathematics that you consider that the future depends only from the present and not the past. So in fact they believe that they can kill the Time with the vanishing of history and they want to start everything with their point of view. In fact if they destroy the heritage, the patrimony, everything you have in Mosul It has only to do one thing, kill Time and start everything with their point of view. So I think that they don’t care which is the temple, which is the place exactly, they care more that there is proof of existence of something different before. So they want to be first that is all. So when you have to be the first you have to destroy everything before and this is very dangerous for Mankind.

Ahmad Al Rikaby:

One of the people that I assume is listening to our conversation is the governor of Mosul, what would you like to suggest to him from where you are?

Dr. Nikos Lygeros:

Just to protect memory, to protect the past, to protect history because even if when you protect only innocent people it’s not sufficient. The problem is to prove that we were there before and that we will be there after. So for me, if the Governor can prove that some element, some buildings, which belong to the past, are still there even after Daesh this is a very good point of view and a counterattack of Mankind. Because you know the target, even in genocide, is not to kill only innocent people. It is to kill the future. So no difference, only the present. If you manage to save the monuments of the past you will have history and you will have history and you will have future. If they destroy everything and you let them do it because you are protecting only people, it’s not sufficient for Mankind. So I mean the true target for you and for us of course because I think we are together is the following: Just show to Daesh that even if they destroy monuments you will restore all the monuments as before and even better. If you say that, it means that you don’t let them any chance to leave a trace of their existence. So is not a problem for just the present, it’s the problem also for the future. If you say to someone, you know, you don’t belong to Mankind because you want to destroy it, it is simple to save the ancient monument and to say “After you, they will be there and you will be nowhere.”

Ahmad Al Rikaby:

Daesh has been in Mosul for over two years now and obviously they killed many people, they have created a lot of damage in the city. And in your opinion what is the damage that will last longer than anything else and of course Daesh is going to be defeated and it’s just a matter of time but what is the damage that will be the long lasting in your opinion.

Dr. Nikos Lygeros:

For me it is the killing of the Time, I mean if you have, for example two years of destruction it’s ok because it’s only two years. The problem is how to restore the rest. How to be before, even after. So for me the problem even for genocide is that there is a past and a future and we want to get the same. So if we let them, too much, too long, too much Time I mean, it’s not just a problem of Time to defeat Daesh. It’s a problem of what you will get after the end of the war. And the problem is the following: If you stay with their methods, if you are afraid, we have fear from them, you will keep some destruction by intention. You know in strategy we say that it’s not just a problem of winning. You can win somebody without playing with him. Why? Because you have to change his mind. If Daesh has changed our mind, it will be a very big problem, because it will stay even after. So you see for example even for New York we have the destruction of the two buildings. They built another building just next to them. They remember with the holes that there was destruction, but the problem is that the new building proves that, you know, even after the destruction we continue. So the problem is the following for me and the same for Mosul, we have to keep our heritage safe, but how to continue? I mean that even after Daesh we will have to construct buildings, which are the proof that we belong to Mankind. So if we have this position, Daesh will only be a parenthesis. But if we don’t have this position we have a queue of the problem which means the problem is not solved and if you don’t solve the problem totally you will get another one.

Ahmad Al Rikaby:

Now one issue which is baffling and confusing for many thinkers and governments around the world is, what is the power of Daesh, how is Daesh able to attract so many people from all over the world. I mean where is the magic stick that is used by Daesh.

Dr. Nikos Lygeros:

I think first of all that Daesh by itself is not a power system. So it has to find soldiers so they use something, which is rather simple. They use the contact between Muslims and Christians in different countries and they use them to provoke friction. So with this friction they can create new soldiers who don’t know in fact the situation of Daesh, so they use a virtual Daesh which is quite nice and they explain to them you have a problem between Muslims and Christians and we are the solution. Because you will have problem with your Muslims, you will have problems with the other Christians and at the end in this boundary of the two situations in the same problem in the same situation you will get another place, in surrendered Iraq another solution. What is the problem: If they were a power system they wouldn’t need all these soldiers of all these other countries. The problem is the following: They need soldiers because they are not enough so they construct a strategy based on the virtual system, which is “we are the best, we are the first, we are the solution so come with us.”  When they come, in fact, they realize some of them that it’s quite different. The reality of Daesh is not this virtual reality of Daesh. So they will see the problem with women, they will see the problem with barbarity, they will see that they are not only fighters as they thought but they are in fact genocidors. So the first time they use this strategy to get more men and women to fight with them but at the end the reality of Daesh is that it is an obstacle, an obstruction. So in fact, there is no end of this strategy because they are not enough. The problem for us is that we thought another solution will be in Europe or in the United States and at the end, now, everybody I know, think that the solution and the problem is in Iraq and not in any other place. So we have to manage the problem at the core of the problem and not at its extensions.

Ahmad Al Rikaby:

Dr. Lygeros do you expect the birth of another version of Daesh when the current Daesh is defeated?

Dr. Nikos Lygeros:

No.

Ahmad Al Rikaby:

OK this is a thought that since we are dealing with an ideology and the ideology is still alive so why don’t you expect another Daesh?

Dr. Nikos Lygeros:

Because with the end of Daesh you have the proof of reality and of history that this system cannot be efficient. Because with Daesh for the moment, you know the previous years, we thought that it was a system that nobody can stop. You remember? A few years before. Now it is possible to stop them. The first time they were in fact invictus, but now we know that they can be defeated. So in their ideology they think that they are the only one who can defeat everybody. Now we see that they have problems so the ideology, which will be the same with Daesh, cannot be the same because in fact we know that wahhabists with this position it’s imposable to stay alive. So the next will be different, not like Daesh for example Daesh is not like Al Qaida, so we see that with the end more or less of Al Qaida we didn’t get something which is like Al Qaida. We got something different but this difference is much more extreme and with the end of that we can see that it’s impossible to use this method to get a result. So for me it’s not only an ideology or part of your religion it’s a problem of strategy. In the Nazi we didn’t get something new as the Nazi. We got different things but not the same because with the end of Hitler, history, Mankind and even fighters understood that this position is impossible for many years. So that’s why it’s not exactly the same thing.

Ahmad Al Rikaby:

Dr. Lygeros among our listeners we have many soldiers from the Iraqi army and the Peshmergas who are currently on the front lines fighting Daesh would you like to say a word to them?

Dr. Nikos Lygeros:

Keep going, we are with you. Maybe you cannot think that there are other people around the world with you but in fact we are together even if we are not next to you. I mean that both are working for Mankind and we belong to this and not to barbarity. So for me it’s not just a little battle or struggle in one country or in one town. It’s an example of what a counterattack means of Mankind. So I just want to say to them be there because it’s your duty but not your duty only as a man or woman as entities, which belong to Mankind.

Ahmad Al Rikaby:

Dr. Lygeros thank so much for your time it was a pleasure talking to you and I look forward to speaking with you in the near future I hope.

Dr. Nikos Lygeros:

Thanks a lot.